Unmasking the Shadows of Goth Culture: A Journey with Author J.W. Thurston
Discovering the Depths of Goth Culture Through an African American Lens and Exploring the Legacy of "What is Goth?
In the shadowy realm of creative inspiration, some torches burn brighter than others. For me, "What is Goth?" by J.W. Thurston was one such beacon of illumination during the writing of the MARROW screenplay. This remarkable book, which explores goth culture through an African American lens, delves deep into a subculture often misunderstood or misrepresented. Thurston's work illuminated the rich tapestry of diversity within goth culture, showing that it's far more than its stereotypical aesthetics and music.
One particular treasure in this journey was the opportunity to engage with J.W. Thurston enough to now count them among my friends. Our most recent conversation unfolded through the medium of email, allowing for thoughtful, introspective responses that brought even greater depth to their already profound insights. It was a dialogue that stretched beyond the conventional boundaries of an interview, where we explored the intricacies of goth culture and its intersection with African American experiences.
This exchange served as a poignant reminder of the power of literature and dialogue in expanding our horizons and challenging preconceptions. "What is Goth?" not only helped shape the narrative of MARROW but also contributed to a broader understanding of the complexities within goth culture. Thurston's work and our insightful conversation continue to be cherished sources of enlightenment in my creative journey.
What inspired you to write What is Goth? and delve into the world of goth culture and identity, particularly from an African American perspective?
It started primarily with the music side of things, and how people interact with it and react to it because 15-20 years ago, society was still segregating whole genres of music and the aesthetics that go with them. 10 years ago even, if we’re being real. ‘Black people listen to abc, white people listen to xyz.’ The reality is most of us experience music in a similar way, and it’s comprised of parts. There’s what we grew up with in the home, what the media tries to push onto us, what our friends recommend to us, and what we discover on our own. It took a while for non-Black people to realize this is how Black people consume music too. Also for years, my partner put together programming, workshops and retreats for teachers to help them teach Black & Latinx history more efficiently. Being witness to that work made me realize there’s a gothic angle that could be explored. So I wanted to document how Black people as a whole have engaged with goth, and also weave in my own journey too. Reveal us to be multifaceted.
How did you go about researching and writing this book? What challenges did you face, and how did you overcome them?
My biggest challenge was on the music side of things; realizing I spent the entirety of my teenage years with my head up my indie hipster ass, and letting my desire to write essays guide me out of my comfort zone. The other challenge was how to make what I’m feeling and saying make sense to other people. My favorite word the last few years has been “adjacent”. If you can’t hear what makes something goth adjacent, I can do my best to describe it. But ultimately it takes a little thinking outside the box, which a lot of people don’t want or like to do. In research, I think you start with what you know, fact-check it, and then reach further back. That’s the only way I can describe it; a never-ending “so what came before that? And before that?” All the essays and versions of this book that have been written and illustrated the last 6 years resulted in the true, final product. Trial and error.
How do you define goth culture, and how does it extend beyond surface-level stereotypes?
Well this is cliche, but goth culture does involve a lot of contemplation of one’s mortality. It shouldn’t be surprising to white folk that non-white people engage with that in different ways.
What are some of the unique experiences and perspectives of African Americans in goth culture?
One of the best examples I can think of is the horror-rap genre. Taking the violence and oppression Black people still face in the South (and the Midwest), and setting it against the bleak and gruesome aesthetics from horror movies and such. The sound is so singular, and added a whole other layer to confessional rap. There’s also the continuous witnessing of our own mortality and oppression, via depictions of enslavement, lynchings, beatings, plantation ghost tours, etc.
How does goth culture explore themes of identity, belonging, and nonconformity?
It’s like, where do you belong if you are told you belong nowhere? This sense of being unwanted and othered, and realizing to others you represent feelings and ideas that aren’t wanted, that are being rejected. That creates community in a weird way. That isn’t something that can be watered down to just a visual look, despite the human tendency to make movements like Goth, or Punk, etc. present in a uniform way. When you realize life is fleeting, there’s no room for conformity, even in alt spaces.
How does the visibility of African Americans in goth culture impact the community?
There's multiple perspectives on what being goth means to Black and brown people, and there is a large effort by white goth gatekeepers to make what defines the subculture this rigid, unchanging thing. It has only been within the last five years (if that) that the goth community has had to take a hard look at itself and realize so many people have been forgotten, or purposefully shut out.
How can we promote diversity and inclusion in goth culture?
I guess realizing other people engage with subculture differently than you. That’s a starting point.
What advice would you give to individuals who are interested in exploring goth culture from a perspective that celebrates diversity and individuality?
The internet makes that so much easier than ever before, and Gen Z are far more inclusive than previous generations. So now voyager, sail thou forth to seek and find.
What are some of the challenges that African Americans face in goth culture?
There’s often a lot of shame when someone in the Black community isn’t conforming to what society’s idea and our community’s idea of Blackness is. Blues music was once sinful. The Pentecostals worshipped in too “primitive” a way. Rock music is “white people music”. It’s kind of a respectability politics thing, and it’s a long, ongoing process to shake that off. Being visibly goth is one way of expressing the pain you experience witnessing anti-Blackness on a regular basis against yourself and others.
How can we challenge stereotypes about goth culture?
Kind of the same as how we promote diversity and inclusion in goth; realizing other people engage with subculture differently than you. I think the goth community has to challenge itself first.
What are some of the ways that goth culture has been appropriated by mainstream culture?
I think the only real culprit of appropriating goth and other subcultures is the fashion industry. But if it makes someone want to delve deeper into goth, I can’t say I’m mad at it. My purist days are behind me now.
How can we preserve the unique aspects of goth culture while also making it more inclusive?
It begs the question, what is there to really preserve? If it’s not changing and evolving, then it’s stagnant. As long as there are people willing to engage with the darker aspects of being alive on this earth, and what that looks like for people who don’t look like you or come from your background, goth (and its variants) will continue indefinitely.
As we navigate the uncharted depths of goth culture, let us carry with us the wisdom gained from these conversations and the spirit of inclusivity championed by J.W. Thurston. In the ever-evolving world of subcultures, diversity should be celebrated, and individuality should be embraced. Goth culture, like all cultures, thrives when it is enriched by the varied perspectives and experiences of its participants. Through dialogue, exploration, and a commitment to challenging stereotypes, we can continue to preserve the unique aspects of goth culture while making it a more inclusive and vibrant community for all.
J.W. Thurston is a published essayist & poet, and an independent researcher / cultural critic. Thurston soundtracked the Yale & Slavery in Historical Perspective conference, and has worked with the educational group The Blues & Beyond as a teacher of gothic blues, as well as performing spoken word at TBB events. J.W. is currently doing web development, & graphic design for The Amistad Committee, Inc, and Yale’s Black & Latino History Project, while pursuing personal projects.