In Conversation with M. Lamar: Unveiling the Afrogothic
Exploring Music, Horror, Resilience and all things in-between the Negrogothic Realm
Welcome to an enthralling exploration of an artist who dares to venture into the uncharted territories of music, art, and culture. M. Lamar, a visionary composer and creator, has forged a path that defies conventions, challenging the very essence of creativity and expression. In this exclusive interview, we delve into the heart and soul of the man who coined the term "Negrogothic" to describe his music, and who has used it as a powerful vehicle to convey profound narratives of the African-American experience.
Intriguing, enigmatic, and utterly captivating, M. Lamar's work transcends genre, spanning opera, metal, performance, and more. His artistic journey begins with the term "Negrogothic," which encapsulates the horrors of the past while acknowledging the resilience and beauty that are at the core of the African-American experience. It's a term that resonates with history and emotion, offering a unique lens through which to examine the complexities of life as a black artist in a predominantly white world.
But it doesn't stop there. M. Lamar's work, often delving into the realms of horror and romance, mirrors the gothic novel tradition in its exploration of the darkest aspects of history and culture. Through his compositions, he unearths the horrors of white supremacy, offering a cathartic release that empowers not only himself but those who listen.
The interview delves into the heart of Negrogothic music, which is deeply intertwined with literature, film, and art. It explores the connections and intersections that exist between these forms of expression, shedding light on the power of storytelling, resilience, and the enduring spirit that has been a driving force in African-American culture.
Furthermore, we uncover the creative process of scoring for film, where M. Lamar's goal is not to distract from the on-screen action but to enhance it. Through vocal and sonic expressions, he weaves a complex tapestry that resonates with the emotions and narratives of the film, often dealing with themes of horror and the gothic.
The concept of "deathlessness" is another captivating thread in M. Lamar's work, encapsulating the idea that the true self exists beyond the confines of the mortal body. This concept forms the foundation for many of his compositions, offering a unique perspective on existence and the enduring nature of the spirit.
Join us as we journey through the Afrogothic and Negrogothic realms, exploring the essence of these terms and their impact on our understanding of the Black experience, history, and culture. M. Lamar's insights are profound, thought-provoking, and, above all, an invitation to explore the depths of creativity and the human spirit. Welcome to a conversation that challenges boundaries, redefines norms, and seeks to find beauty within the darkest chapters of history. Welcome to the world of the composer for MARROW’s film score, M. Lamar.
You coined the term "Negrogothic" to describe your music. Can you share more about the origins of this term and what it means to you as a musician and artist?
Well for me the term wasn’t just about the music but about my practice as a whole. It became the perfect way of describing my life’s work to that point. Though I spent lots of time in DIY punk scenes it was the goth scene with all its trapping that I really connected to. Yet I always felt something for me was missing. It was really in the mid to late 90s that I started this Negrogothic project. I was fronting a few bands in San Francisco after I dropped out of Yale School of Art. I wanted to bring this B movie horror sensibility to these songs I was writing that were clearly about race and white supremacy. The first song I wrote that reflected this was called Plantation Mistress. What I loved about singing that song at the time was that it felt very empowering to become this avenging demonic angel. Horror as a genre allows an agency that one can’t often find in the real world. I have often spoken about the negrogothic as much like the gothic novel in that it contains both horror and romance. To critically embrace being the monster of a horror narrative can be very empowering and cathartic.
Your work often delves into the themes of horror and romance, which are central to the gothic novel tradition. How do you incorporate these elements into your music, and what kind of emotions or narratives are you trying to convey through them?
The horror of course is white supremacy and the romance is the deep love that has been at the center of the best of black diasporic cultural production. In Plantation Mistress I sang of grave robbing negresses, In a more recent song called Legacies. I sing, “he cut off my father’s private parts and likes to play with mine”... I continue… “He wore that hood in mobs of men and hung him from that tree. He hung him from the tree of blood and now that tree gon swallow me.” I can’t think of anything more horrific than realizing you are quite literally in bed with someone who castrated and murdered your father. This for me is also about the horror in which black men are often objectified. In Swinging Low I sing...” swinging twisting round. Watch the blood flow going down. Dismember members only. Black cock trophies for whites only. See it touch it fear it.” so Negrogothic became a way for me to make sense of my life in the most horrific of historical context. Echoing what James Baldwin reminds us... “ the past isn’t past.” this black male objectification is played out every day on dating and hookup apps as well as in the deaths of us at the hands of police.
For me, the Negrogothic became a way to make some sense out of the nonsense of Darren Wilson the police officer who murdered Mike Brown in Ferguson. His grand jury testimony is a deep insight into the white psychotic/ supremacist mindset. He describes himself as a four-year-old child holding on to Hulk Hogan's arm when he grabs mike brown. He also said ‘Brown was like a “demon” coming at him. This was his justification for murdering this unarmed black child. Never mind that he is the same height as Brown. It was his image of Brown as somehow superhuman and so much bigger than him that reasonable people are meant to take seriously. Indeed within white supremacist logic, this fantasy of black men as a threat to white male patriarchy must be put down. Negrogothic expanded over the years to be able to account for this kind of horror of the white psychotic mind.
My piece Funeral Doom Spiritual which has a section called the Demon Rising is my way of talking about this. As well as my piece American Cuck. This is what I wrote about that piece at the time “American Cuck is a multimedia video and environmental installation and musical performance exploring the maintenance of white supremacy in the pornographic imagination and psyche of the U.S. nation-state, and its effects on every aspect of American Life. I am specifically wanting to explore the construction of the white male cuckold, the black male object of his obsession, and the relation of both to a plantation culture of race, desire, and violence.
Indeed, it is my argument that the construction of the hyper-sexual black person in the white imagination continues to lead to our death in a white supremacist society. The hyper-sexual,hyper-physical black person in the white supremacist mind offers virtuosic pleasure and threat. On the other side of the fantasy of the “Big Black Cock” is a police officer shooting an unarmed black man or woman.”
"Negrogothic" seems to encapsulate the horrors of the past while also acknowledging resilience and beauty. Can you tell us more about how your music explores this duality and the complexities of the African-American experience?
I mean I would argue that Negrogothic has existed long before I came up with the term. Toni Morrison’s Beloved is a Negrogothic novel. Mahalia Jackson singing Soon I’ll be done with the trouble of this world at the end of the film imitation of life is a quintessential Negrogothic moment. Marian Anderson singing Purcell's When I am Laid in Earth is another. Actually, Marian Anderson singing anything is a Negrogothic moment. There is always such pain in her voice as well as such beauty. Like the great spiritual Deep River where death and freedom are the same thing. They call and respond to one another. There is a great human striving here always with the underbelly of grand catastrophe. The Negrogothic has always looked directly into the eye of the storm and extracted great beauty from the doom and gloom. It is the blues but without a stable beat. There is no stability.
In your view, how does "Negrogothic" music relate to the broader afrogothic genre, which encompasses literature, film, and art? How do these different forms of expression intersect and inform one another?
In my view, it's all the same. Both terms are ways to grapple with and transfigure the horror of our experience. Afrogoth is certainly a much more comfortable term for non-black people to use in these modern times. What I love about Negrogothic as opposed to Afrogoth is that it is a bit old-fashioned sounding and out of date. The gothic is always a bit out of date looking backward even as it is always futuristic.. Afrogoth is certainly the more marketable term lol. The Negrogothic is always resisting commodification as a survival strategy. Of course, here we are not talking about material survival but survival of the spirit and the soul. The Negrogothic is always paying close attention to the spirit and the souls of black folk.
What unique challenges and opportunities does composing for film present, especially when dealing with themes of horror or the gothic?
My main goal is to not distract from the action on screen but to enhance it. A lot of the work I do when scoring for film is vocal but not necessarily involve singing lyrics… There is so much I can do at the very lowest parts of my voice and the highest parts that I just love in horror cinema and 5.1. My training has allowed me to make a lot of sounds without damaging my voice. It’s so much fun for me to make not always the most beautiful sound lol. Sometimes the most beautiful sound is the ugliest. It depends on the intention and the context from which the sound emerges. In many ways, it’s easier than having to have all the drama in the music. It is really a dance between the image action and the sound. I love responding to action and images sonically.
"Deathlessness" is a recurring theme in your work. Can you elaborate on what this concept means to you and how it influences your creative process?
Deathlessness is a term I discovered in the work of Anthony Paul Farly. He rightfully identifies slavery as “the death event at the navel of our modernity.” He continues...“If you live in the present made possible by slavery, and everyone does, then death appears as your father and your mother and your country and your lord and your salvation, and your law. You are not alive. We are not alive. We are a repetition, an echo, a reflection of the great darkness of slavery, the original accumulation. The life you think you are living is not real, it is a shadow of slavery, and slavery is itself only a shadow.”
But then Farly writes in his essay Zombie JAMBOREE “ What of the angel's debt? The debt the angel owes for its deathlessness.” The angel not interred with our bones. Our best selves exist in an angelic state. Sun Ra understood this when he said ‘I am not a man you see I am an angel.” He understood that the total death event that is the body is not our full story. It’s not even half the story. We are all at our best angelic spirits. The dreaming state of deathlessness always leaves room for a great awakening. This angel debt and the possibility of a great awakening obsess me. Your music often explores connections to the spirit world. How do spirituality and mysticism, inspire your compositions, and how do they tie into the afrogothic aesthetic? Sun Ra spoke often of spirit sound... This always made so much sense to me. My singing life is rooted deeply in the African American Spiritual or Negro Spiritual as they were once known. Those words and melodies make up my DNA.
There is a performance of Crucifixion by Jessye Norman at Carnegie Hall with a full choir and orchestra that I repeatedly watched as a child. This was before I had discovered the work of James Cone the Cross and the Lynching Tree. I instinctively understood that this brutality, this violent torture, and terror she was singing about was a lynching. What is being depicted in that song is so monstrous and yet so beautiful in its sonic opulence. It is Norman’s African voice rigorously cultivated through a European operatic pedagogy deeply rooted in the black church that delivers this Wagaian urgency and majesty to this performance. The Negrogothic always embodies a highly cultivated and critical encounter with European traditions by dispossessed Africans. Transfiguring that monstrous tradition into the holiness of our existential cry.
Can you share some of your key musical influences, both within and outside the afrogothic and gothic genres? How have these influences shaped your unique sound?
Opera singers like Marian Anderson, Leontyne Price, and Jessye Norman are my biggest influences. Cecil Taylor, Ornette Coleman, and Sun Ra are a really big deal. Diamanda Galas is huge, like really really huge for me. Sunn 0))) and doom metal as a genre has been epic for me. Maybe not so much musically but aesthetically and culturally glam rock is pretty major for me. And of course, we understand that post-punk goth and new wave emerge from Glam rock. This is very very important to understand. When I go dancing which I haven’t done in years I wanna dance to TRex, The Stooges, and Bauhaus even though that’s not the kind of music I make.
Your work pushes boundaries and challenges conventions. What advice would you give to emerging artists who want to explore unconventional and genre-blurring forms of music and expression?
I would only say have fun. Music is joy, pleasure, and pain... music is breath and life itself. Don’t be limited by genre and markets. If we pay too much attention to what the market is asking for we can’t find anything new. Every artist has to find their own inner voice and you don’t find that voice paying attention to what is selling the most because that always changes.
In your view, how does Afrogothic/ Negrogothic contribute to a broader understanding of the Black experience, history, and culture?
The Negrogothic is the darkest of the dark side of our history. Ralph Elison talked about the blues as a catastrophe told lyrically. The Negrogothic lives this catastrophe completely. It is a totalizing experience from which there is no escape. At the darkest moment of this terror, some kind of spirit enters that says I have to be free from this by any means. This feeling, this state of being must die and if I die with it so be it. At least I will then be free.